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Lion Dragon
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MessageSujet: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyLun 5 Mar 2018 - 23:38

Çäðàâñòâóéòå, óâàæàåìûå ëþáèòåëè êíèã-èãð! Óçíàâ î âàøåì çàìå÷àòåëüíîì ñàéòå - ÿ ñðàçó æå çàõîòåë çàðåãèñòðèðîâàòüñÿ è óçíàòü êàê ìîæíî áîëüøå î òîâàðèùàõ èç Ôðàíöèè. ß - ïèñàòåëü èç ðóññêîÿçû÷íîãî ñîîáùåñòâà ëþáèòåëåé êíèã-èãð è èíòåðàêòèâíîé ëèòåðàòóðû) Äàâàéòå äðóæèòü! Íàì áûëî áû î÷åíü èíòåðåñíî ïîçíàêîìèòüñÿ ñ ôðàíöóçñêèìè êíèãàìè-èãðàìè, è ïîçíàêîìèòü âàñ ñî ñâîèìè)
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyLun 5 Mar 2018 - 23:40

?
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyLun 5 Mar 2018 - 23:47

Hello, dear fans of the gamebooks. After learning about your wonderful website - I immediately wanted to register and learn as much as possible about my friends from France. I am a writer from the Russian-speaking community of fans of gamebooks and interactive literature) Let's be friends! It would be very interesting for us to get acquainted with French gamebooks, and to acquaint you with their)
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMar 6 Mar 2018 - 7:57

желанный !
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMar 6 Mar 2018 - 8:04

Pas facile à maîtriser les claviers BEPO lol!
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMar 6 Mar 2018 - 9:05

Hello, indeed it would be very interesting for our community to learn about Russian speaking gamebooks !
Be welcome
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMar 6 Mar 2018 - 13:46

Thanks for the warm words! The book-games in Russia officially began to be published immediately after the collapse of the USSR in 1991, although unofficially there are separate books-games written much earlier (for example, I read a book-game, dated 1971). As is known, the formation of books-games in modern form was influenced in many ways by France: for example, literary experiments of the group of writers and mathematicians of ULIPO. The same "Tale of Your Taste" Raymond Keno (1967) was translated back in the USSR and is a small book-game. Of course, at the same time, there were already the "Garden of diverging paths" by Jorge Borges, where the idea of ​​book games was expressed; "Game in the classics" and "62. Model for the assembly" by Julio Cortázar; fairy tales with several finals Gianni Rodari; non-linear prose Milorad Pavic; "Pale fire" by Nabokov; so that some experimental ideas for the basis were. Prior to the dissolution of the USSR, access to English literature and the same role-playing games was mainly by translators (the first role-playing game arose even under the USSR, it was called "Enchanted Country"). After the collapse of the Soviet Union - many post-Soviet countries came to the post-Soviet space, including Russia. One of them, "The Sorcerer of the Fire Mountain," was read by the most famous author of book games in Russia, Dmitry Yurievich Braslavsky (who, in addition to books, writes ordinary novels). Inspired, he wrote "Dungeons of the Black Castle" - the first officially published book-game in Russia. Later Braslavsky wrote many more books, which were circulated in hundreds of thousands of books. This is the "Labyrinth of Hidden Death", and "The Mystery of Captain Shelton" and many others. But the most popular of his books was The Faithful Sword of the King - a book about France of the times of Henry of Navarre, where, playing for the agent of the Protestant King, it was necessary to fight the Catholic League without betraying his faith, accomplish the monarch's mission and avenge his father. A series of "Adventure book-game", published by publishing houses "AT" and "Kaleidoscope" from 1991-1993. In 1995, the publishing house "AST" began to release a series of "The Way of the Hero" reprinted books-games Braslavsky and published other authors. For example, the books of the friend of Braslavsky, Olga Golotvina are very popular. In parallel, in Russia were published books by foreign authors - Livingston, Jackson and other world-famous writers. Also in the 90s the series "CYOA" was actively published, some small series and separate books of Russian and foreign authors that were published outside the series. Many liked the "Island of the octopus" Philip Elby - probably the most famous and beloved French book-game in Russia. In 2000, began to publish RL Stein, but at this time the peak of popularity of books-games was and the only stronghold of nostalgic fans was our site In 2010, there was a publishing house of Sergey Selivanov, specializing exclusively in the production of high-quality books. Currently, we have translated and written a huge number of books, there are young talented authors who write serious and interesting works (for example, last year the 21-year-old author, Innokenty Kravtsov, wrote a book-game "Foxtrot-Uniform", dedicated to the war in Vietnam through the eyes of ordinary soldiers, who were left to fight for unknown reasons). There are many interesting contests for writers, translators, reader-players and reviewers: there are annual contests, there is a contest for a book-game of the decade, and so on. Even there was an experience of creating an audio-book-game for the blind, but so far it is one. Last year, for the first time, a large Book-playing Grant was held, on which my book Laughter was victorious. My name is Gennady Loginov, if you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them)
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMar 6 Mar 2018 - 13:50

By the way, I want to put a link to our community, but here it does not work yet (as I understand, a week from the moment of registration).
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMar 6 Mar 2018 - 13:58

Wow, I think we need to have a subject dedicated to bookgames in Russia. Thanks for all of this information Gennady. Do you understand a bit of french ? As I understanc it would be interesting to have these Braslavsky gamebooks translated into french... especially if he worte about France Smile
By the way, I'd suggest you also go to our twin website rdv1, which is also dedicated to gamebooks, but in a more creative perspective (meaning more writers on rdv1).
http://rdv1.dnsalias.net/forum/

Alin, tu penses que ce serait possible d'ouvrir un topic sur les livre-jeux en Russie ?
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMar 6 Mar 2018 - 14:09

Bien sur ! Pour l'instant ouvrez le dans la section général. On vera plus tard s'il est plus judicieux de le ranger ailleurs. (j'ai presque envie de ressusciter The English Connection).
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMar 6 Mar 2018 - 14:21

Thank you! I registered on the twin site, too.) Unfortunately, I do not speak French, although in our schools it is also taught (though not in all) as well as English. But we translated a lot of different books-games (from Bulgarian, English, Japanese, etc.), including, of course, from French: we have authors who know French and translate French books. But, unfortunately, not much is translated from the French, because there are not as many books available as we would like. In general, I'm very interested in French culture: literature (especially avant-garde - Paul Eluard, Andre Breton, Jacques Prever, etc.), painting (especially impressionism), music (especially opera, because I am, among other things, an opera singer) . So far, it turned out that we translated many foreign book-games in Russian, but Russian book games have so far been rarely published in other languages ​​(for example, in Bulgaria Genesis and Catharsis published my friend Andrei Zhuravlev, who writes under pseudonym Rey Gard, as well as the book-play of Roman Ostroverkhov's "Silent School"). We plan to translate books for a gift to foreign readers, but this, of course, is more difficult than translating something into one's own language)
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMar 6 Mar 2018 - 15:31

From the recently published, I would like to show you my book "Sea Tales". It is dedicated to the sailing fleet of the XVI century and contains a lot of humor, folklore and historical facts)

Hm... I'm trying to attach a file, for some reason it does not go out (the format for electronic readers). Can you specify the e-mail address to which I would send you the books?
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cdang
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Date d'inscription : 13/11/2013

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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMar 6 Mar 2018 - 16:21

Hello,

considering the history, I have a little different point of view. There are IMHO two separate branches of the tree.

There is the "literature" branch which you describe: Oulipo (Raymond Queneau), Jorge Luis Borges, Julio Cortázar… It starts indeed sooner: Doris Webster and Mary Alden Hopkins, Considere the Consequences!, The Century Co. (New York, 1930)
https://twitter.com/xfoml/status/904043273022349312
and I would even track down to Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There (1871) because the book is a play of chess and the chapters are encounters on the chessboard (we could imagine playing a different play and thus reading the book in a different order).

This branch has further developments such as the hypertextual literature (Michael Joyce, afternoon, a story, 1987; Daniel Deroulet, La Simulation humaine, 2014), or more traditional books (Kim Newman, Life's Lottery, 1999).

And there is the "game" branch. This branch derives IMHO from the role-playing game and the first RPG solo adventure was Buffalo Castle, writen by Rick Loomis for Tunnels & Trolls in 1976. It was inspired by the educational books « TutorText » from Norman Crowder (first book: The Arithmetic of Computers, 1958).
http://www.arithmeticofcomputers.co.uk/
All gamebooks you probably like, especially the Fighting Fantasy, Sorcery!, Lone Wolf… Derive from this branch. All the author are initially role-players, mainly D&D (the american Steve Jackson later created Steve Jackson Games and wrote GuRPS, the british Steve jackson and Ian Livingstone created Games Workshop which published Warhammer and the Advance FIghting Fantasy RPG, Joe Dever won a AD&D contest and Lone Wolf became several RPGs…).

The differences between these two branches?

  • In the literature branch, the authors try to explode the narrative structure, whereas in the game branch, it is rather a classical story (as a Russian, you would probably refer to Vladimir Propp, Владимир Яковлевич Пропп, on this topic).
  • In the game branch, the narrator is only one person (the hero) and all you see or hear is what the hero sees or hears (subjective point of view, first person game); the choices correspond to the acts of the hero. In the literature branch, the narrator may vary and the choices are not bound to a character (you may choose to follow one or another character, choose whether it rains or not).
  • In the literature branch, stories are mainly divergent: once you make a choice, you choose a path that will never cross another path (structure sometimes called "Time Cave"). In the game branch, paths converge regularly ("Branch and Bottleneck" structure). See https://heterogenoustasks.wordpress.com/2015/01/26/standard-patterns-in-choice-based-games/

Now, the case of Choose Your Own Adventure is still a problem for me. It was released the same year as Buffalo Castle but written a few years before. It is the main reference for the British and American gamebook lovers but for me it belongs to the literature branch (because of the divergent structure). The fact that the author pretends it's a game does not include it automatically in games (this is also true for Webster and Hopkins Considere the Consequences!). The core of the game is in the quality of the choices, see for this Greg Costikyan, I have no word and I must design
http://www.costik.com/nowords2002.pdf
and the possibilities of convergence (a purely divergent book is chaotic and does not represent a consistant world that exists whatever the hero does).


Dernière édition par cdang le Mar 6 Mar 2018 - 16:31, édité 1 fois
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMar 6 Mar 2018 - 16:29

Thank you! I'm aware of the impact of role-playing games on book games - and about Buffalo Castle ("Tunnels and Trolls") and about Lewis Carroll, and about the rest (you can even remember in addition to role books and literature, as well as desktop wargames, and books for professional training, and psychological branching literature, and educational, Bernard Skinner, etc.). I just talked specifically about what influenced the formation of books-games in Russia in a certain period of time. And so, of course, and D & D, and other things also contributed. In general, of course, I was able to translate an article in which early examples of interactive literature include as much inscriptions on plates two thousand years ago.
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Date d'inscription : 13/11/2013

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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMar 6 Mar 2018 - 16:32

Skald a écrit:
I was able to translate an article in which early examples of interactive literature include as much inscriptions on plates two thousand years ago.
I'm excited about this! Could you please provide some references?
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMar 6 Mar 2018 - 16:41

In 2011, in the academic monograph "Iliad in brief: a review of the epos in Tabulae Iliacae" Michelle Squire makes a detailed analysis of "Tabulae Iliacae" - Roman marble slabs created between 100 BC. BC ... AND 100 AD. Hr., Which contain texts and images from Greek and Roman mythology.

In his work, in the chapter devoted to the study of illustrations apart from the text, a theory develops that their arrangement, perhaps, actually reflects a different understanding of how to interact with text and image.

He also argued that their untidiness and complexity is an element of the game that represents information in a non-linear form. Squire does not claim that he discovered a book-game created 2000 years ago. But his theories remind that the novelty of books-games is partially perceived as such due to modern ideas about the linearity of books. But these ideas were not always as strong as in the 20th century, during the rapid development of interactive books.

It would be interesting if, now, in the era of the Internet, which again changed the notion of linearity, our way of reading literature could return to an earlier stage. But this topic is suitable for the article. At the moment we can only conclude that there is nothing new under the sun.
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Date d'inscription : 13/11/2013

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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMar 6 Mar 2018 - 17:26

Thanks a lot, I'll have a look at this.

For sure, non-linearity is an old idea, but it is also a fuzzy concept. There are many ways a story can be non-linear. E.g. a "brain story", i.e. a story where the ideas pop up like memories in a brain, not following the chronology of facts but the chronology of remembrance.

This is why I use the concept of non-sequentiality to spot the fact that the reading is not sequential (from left to right and top to bootom in our countries) but jump from block (paragraph, section) to block, which is usually called ergodic literature.

So you can have a book which is purely non-sequential and non-linear in time (e.g. a dictionary), a book that is sequential but non-linear in time (e.g. Marcel Proust's In Search of Lost Time), a book that is non-sequencial but linear in time (e.g. Cortazar's Hopscotch, or any calligram) etc.
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMar 6 Mar 2018 - 17:39

Thank you! Naturally, games with text and meaning exist for as many years as writing. Even in the Sumerian epic, for example, there is a situation when Gilgamesh meets characters who quote him the beginning of the story about him; with the text experimenting Dante Alighieri, Giovanni Boccaccio, Jeffrey Chausser, Lawrence Stern, Milorad Pavic and many others. Dadaists and surrealists in the early twentieth century, too, conducted a lot of experiments in this respect: they collected collages from accidentally cut newspaper words, used automatic writing and other techniques. For example, Paul Eluard so generated poetic phrases like "Language is a red fish, in a glass of your voice," or "life is a white ball in the hand of an infant." Well, perhaps, the most famous of the statements of surrealist poets: "Exquisite corpse will drink a young wine."

One of our authors, Konstantin Shepelin, wrote a solitaire novel. This is a story about a poet who lived in Tsarist Russia, met the Revolutions of 1917 and later left for France. In the course of the narrative, one can support the Communists, or be against the Communists, serve or not serve in the army, meet Lenin and much more. But the more interesting is that as the history develops, it is necessary to write a poem, sustained in one of the poetic styles of the late twentieth and early twentieth centuries (futurism, symbolism, acmeism) and if at the end of the character's life the poem is harmonious - it means he lived a bright life, not changing their ideals. I think you will be interested to see this work.
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMar 6 Mar 2018 - 17:47

Tell me, please, what French book-games do you consider the best and would recommend for translation into Russian? If you have interesting articles about book-games and interactive literature, I would be grateful for them too)
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Date d'inscription : 13/11/2013

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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMer 7 Mar 2018 - 9:49

About French gamebooks: you have a uge project for republishing gamebooks written in the 1980's. It is supported by the associative editor Posidonia. Most of these books are very interesting. You may contact the member of this forum called Phi Jai. The project is presented here:
https://fr.ulule.com/histoires-a-jouer/

You also have Megara Entertainment who publishes new French authors, especially the serials « Nils Jacket »  and « L'Épopée du Moine Guerrier » :
http://www.megara-entertainment.com/

One author was published in Bulgaria : Emmanuel Quaireau (publisher: Сдружение „КНИГИ-ИГРИ“), see https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21903520
you can contact him here, his nickname is Fitz.

You also have the editor Alkonost (a name that probably sounds familiar to you :-) )
http://www.alkonost-editions.com/index.php?static2/livres-jeux
(who also publish the pocket format of « L'Épopée du Moine Guerrier »).

And Scriptarium, who published two gamebooks in the world of the roleplaying game Rêve: The Dream Orobouros (Rêve de dragon)
http://scriptarium.fr/fr/reve-de-dragon-le-bal-au-pont/

Not really a gamebook but a very original non-sequencial book (you build your own labyrinth with flying pages): L'Envers du dédale by Côme Martin
http://www.editionsrutabaga.com/product-page/l-envers-du-d%C3%A9dale-de-c%C3%B4me-martin

Personally, I didn't read any of these so I cannot advise you but all those books got a really good feedback here.

The Canadians also seem to have some dynamic French-writing authors, I see some projects on the web, e.g. Sébastien Theoret.

You also have a website that gathers the non-professional gamebooks. Most of the new published author come from this pool. You might focus on the winners of the "Yaztromo" prize. The site is Littéraction:
http://litteraction.fr/presentation/livre-dont-on-est-le-heros/concours-yaztromo
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Lion Dragon
Nombre de messages : 89
Age : 34
Profession : Singer, writer, teacher
Date d'inscription : 05/03/2018

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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMer 7 Mar 2018 - 12:30

Thank you!

Tell us, how does the French community in general compare the issue of books-games (and interactive literature in general) with traditional literature? There are different opinions, but most often the main polar opposing positions are two: some believe that book games are not a form of art (and they may not perceive them in literature in principle, sometimes they do not perceive books like books without mechanics like CYOA) and think like "In the traditional book there is a narrative, depth, disclosure of characters and images, and the book-game is first and foremost a game, it can not be realized, it is sacrificed, and although the game can be fascinating - one can be a great writer, but not a great one writer m-game books "; others believe that a quality book-game (and interactive literature in general) - and should, and can have all the advantages of classical literature (the depth of the story, elaborated characters, artistic style, etc.), besides having an additional dignity - not just entertainment, but books that can benefit the mind and heart. I'm closer to the second point of view (although many of my friends stick to the first one), because there are a lot of wonderful books-games devoted to serious issues and read as full-fledged novels.
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Nombre de messages : 4871
Localisation : Le Havre (Seine-Maritime, France)
Profession : Ingénieur en génie des matériaux et génie mécanique
Loisirs : Jdr, musique, cinéma, aïkido, iaïdo
Date d'inscription : 13/11/2013

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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMer 7 Mar 2018 - 13:20

Concerning the French population in general: I think that gamebooks are considered as books for children, which means:

  • people considere it's a funny way to learn to read so they are happy their children read it;
  • they also considere it is low-level literature, not very interesting when you are more than 15 years old.

So the books sell well in France, you have big editors (Hachette, Gallimard, Fleurus, Gründ…) with big licences (Star Wars, Beast Quest…) and probably tenths (hundreds?) of thousands of readers. But the community of people who consider it can be valuable art is rather small (and you can meet them here (-: ). The French gamebooks I mentionned above are printed in small amounts, maybe 500 units (or less).
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Date d'inscription : 05/03/2018

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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMer 7 Mar 2018 - 16:53

Thank you.) I would like to give the French community Russian book games. But just now we have few books translated from Russian into English. It's not scary? So I understand, there would be a text, and translating it into your own language is always easier. I would like to post a link to the Russian-speaking community, but until a week has passed since registration - I can not put links. Maybe there is an email address to which I could send links and books?
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cdang
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cdang


Masculin
Nombre de messages : 4871
Localisation : Le Havre (Seine-Maritime, France)
Profession : Ingénieur en génie des matériaux et génie mécanique
Loisirs : Jdr, musique, cinéma, aïkido, iaïdo
Date d'inscription : 13/11/2013

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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMer 7 Mar 2018 - 18:03

Some of us translate from English to French, but we are not professional translators so… Traduttore, traditore as Italian say, "the translator is a traitor" (a betrayer). What we do is we understand the text then rewrite it in our way, we call this "targetism" (as we write in the taget-labguage way).

So it is possible to translate some russian books from english to french but we would probably lose the flavour of the original text. However, it's better than nothing (-:

Sorry, no email adress.

What you can do is to write (in english) some articles in the general section
https://www.la-taverne-des-aventuriers.com/f2-en-general
e.g. about russian gamebooks, until you reach the required amount of messages (-:
You can also try to make up the adress so the system does recognise it.
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Nombre de messages : 89
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Date d'inscription : 05/03/2018

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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè EmptyMer 7 Mar 2018 - 18:13

Well, we have a similar situation: many books have been translated from other languages ​​into Russian, but specifically translating their books into English to make them available to the world - so far it's planned) Translators are also not professionals, and a work of art is generally such a thing, where much knowledge of the original language is lost. In the language there are always puns, specific expressions that are not understood in another environment. For example, I remember translating somehow a poem from a German, and there everything is built on a game of words, a literal translation of them loses. Well, for example, the expression literally translated as "hears how the grass grows" (this means "very smart", but in translation, out of context, it looks like nonsense). In general, the question of translating into English, I plan to decide) I'll try to accumulate messages in the subject so that the functions are opened - and I'll put links to different materials)
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