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 Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè

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cdang
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptyJeu 8 Mar 2018 - 23:37

There is one important question. Books games are often not perceived in the context of the world literary heritage - many see in them something isolated and frivolous. Perhaps, the question of the name is affected: if you say "book-game" - this can not be taken seriously, as, for example, "interactive romance". But I'm just trying to find out if such literature has received academic recognition. I have not yet had the opportunity to see dissertations or monographs dedicated to this topic. Perhaps, if the international scientific community will write serious reviews on quality books-games - the general public will begin to treat them better.
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptyVen 9 Mar 2018 - 11:56

Skald a écrit:
But sometimes there are people among the role-players who consider themselves to be "role elites", and blaming others for "playing improperly"
Yep, unfortunately. And considering this point, I think that gamebooks suffer two problems:

  • they are considered as sub-literature by "classic" literature academicians;
  • they are considered as sub-roleplaying game by roleplayers.

I myself thought, maybe 25 years ago, that gamebooks were a lesser form of RPG (you know, this kind of solitary pleasure because you don't have a group to play with), and paul Mason had this opinion too (of course I changed my mind in hte meanwhile). I think that a lot of roleplayers think so and it may be a reason why the RPG and gamebook communities are so few connected. And several French author of gamebooks I interviewed said that they wrote gamebooks just for the money (but they did their job very seriously and the result is exceptional).

Voyageur Solitaire a écrit:
All this is too complicated and sophisticated for me.
I doubt that. I doubt you considere saying "Zork is a computer gamebook" is complicated. I doubt you considere saying "Tales of the Arabian Nights or Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective use the same mechanisms as the gamebooks" is something complicated. I doubt you considere saying "dictionary and gamebooks have a common point: you don't read every single section" is something complicated.

Voyageur Solitaire a écrit:
I never think about all these theories while writing.
But you do use them anyway, you just don't know it. Because these theories are not out of the brain of researchers in laboratories, it is in fact just writers, game designers, who analysed their sucesses and failure and try to draw some general guidelines to avoid repeating the errors and allow other people to profit from their experience.

When you read "the convergence is more important than the divergence", you are probably puzzled and skip this. Except that you don't apreciate the CYOAs and Star Challenge and you just keep away from their structure.


Dernière édition par cdang le Ven 9 Mar 2018 - 15:07, édité 1 fois
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptyVen 9 Mar 2018 - 13:21

Unfortunately, in many communities (in Russia, in Bulgaria and not only), sometimes even among authors of book games, writers meet who say: "Books-games are not literature in general, even if there are beautiful descriptions and it's fascinating." Usually, they are either authors who write book games only for commercial reasons, or role-players accustomed to the dry text commenting on the mechanics. Sometimes there are other disputes, for example: "Is the text quest a book-game? Sms-game? Visual novel? Interactive literature and books-games are the same, or not?". At the same time, the same book-game can meet in paper form, and in the form of a computer game, because of this, the same person can treat it in different ways. Sometimes they try to enter different categories for classification, for example "paper quests" or "programmed adventures". Or they suggest, by analogy with liturgy, to call book-games "literary quest" or "interactive novels", so that they are perceived more seriously.
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptyVen 9 Mar 2018 - 15:53

...for example, history will in any case pass through points A, B, C, D, E, but different paths lead to this, opening and closing various possibilities in subsequent chapters, influencing tactical and the strategic capabilities of the character and leading to different endings in the end. What do you think?

Totally agree.
All the gamebooks I have written count several different endings (seven for the last one), many different ways and possibilities, depending on the reader choices. And some can even become a small adventure included in the main one.
To me, it's a question of realism. And it encourages the reader to read it again, to try the other ways, places or choices. I enjoy an adventure you can read five of six times still finding something new.
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptySam 10 Mar 2018 - 0:20

Hello Skald and welcome here !

As for the academic recognition, it's almost impossible in France : a lot of "academic" teachers just run away if a book is a science-fiction one, for instance. They are afraid because "it's not academic".

In France, the name "gamebook" is not the most famous and may be different from the english term. In France, "gamebook" includes a lot of different types of books in fact : puzzles-book, find something in the illustrations, maze books, and of course, most of them are designed "for children". In fact, a french "gamebook" is quite "everything which is not a ordinary book".
Inside the gamebook category, we have the "livre dont vous êtes le héros" which is the most famous term because of the huge success of the Fighting Fantasy books in the 80's such a The Warlock of Firetop Mountain. "Dont vous êtes le Héros" (You Are the Hero) means an interactive book with choices of § (and the fact that the reader is the hero, of course).

To sum up :
"livre dont vous êtes le héros (ldvelh)" is the most popular term because of Fighting Fantasy, the most famous collection, and is for teenagers / young adult. Years after, "dont vous êtes le héros" is reduced to the children market as for the official new publications (such a shame).
Gamebook is a wider category which includes ldvelh for teenagers and children, and a lot of other stuffs.



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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptySam 10 Mar 2018 - 0:39

Hello! Thank you!

Do you think, can the brand name change change the attitude of academic circles and a wide audience? For example, at one time literary critics who considered it unprepossessing to criticize fantasy and fiction began to use the term "magical realism" (originally introduced by René Magritte in painting) for a number of literatures of works that did not fit into the traditional canons (Borges, Marquez, Cortazar and many others). A kind of "camouflage" helped in this case. Of course, one renaming is not enough, but it can be useful.

What is the average audience of book fans in France? In the 90s in Russia, they were read mostly by teenagers, nowadays people over 30 years old (grown-up fans), but there are also absolutely children and people of older generations. Periodically, we try to popularize books-games: circulations are given to orphanages and libraries.
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptySam 10 Mar 2018 - 8:37

Skald a écrit:
What is the average audience of book fans in France?

Not really high, I'm afraid.
Most of the fans are in their forties now, they are the previous generation, teenagers at the golden age of gamebooks. Some newcomers are younger but not so many. That kind of literature is not so popular in France where Fantasy and Science Fiction remain a little bit "underground". Today, you still find the last gamebooks in the children literature section and they are no longer printed.

The most important thing is not the audience in fact but the passion and commitment of our little community, with writers, illustrators, forums such this one and parents talking about these books with their children, trying to make them to appreciate.
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptySam 10 Mar 2018 - 9:24

Naturally. Commercial success or popularity among the masses is not an indicator of the quality of the book, nor is it the opposite: there are many horrible books that have always been and will be in demand, as well as many beautiful books that (unfortunately) are of interest today except for a narrow circle of readers . And, of course, there has always been a niche literature that will survive, although its audience will be small. But somehow readers and continuers are needed.

Some authors who wrote before are not interested in popularizing and reviving interest in books-games, because for them this is not a goal, but a means in personal affairs. A lot of problems in this regard are completely resolved, just such authors argue: "And what do I personally get from this?". Many publishers: "If I invest in advertising all this, will there be a constant influx of new books-games in such a volume and from different authors so that it makes sense?".

In my understanding, first of all the writer is a person who has a special mindset, the need to write. This is not a matter of recognition or success, in terms of fame or income. It's just that a person has thoughts, images, ideas, he is filled with creative energy that seeks out. Naturally, he may wish to convey some thoughts and ideas, but just a creative person has a need for creativity - just as the need to eat, sleep and breathe. If he finds himself on a desert island and will know that no one will ever read his book, but he will have the opportunity to write - he will write.
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptySam 10 Mar 2018 - 9:37

Totally agree once again.
I write and draw for my own pleasure above all.
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptySam 10 Mar 2018 - 14:57

Philippe Ebli, a French writer popular in Russia, remade several acknowledged good ordinary books in the format of books-games (to the point of disputes over the literary merits of books-games). How many do you know of such examples? And are there any reverse cases?
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptyDim 11 Mar 2018 - 14:56


Can you recommend me interesting articles that I could translate for the Russian-speaking community? Thank you.
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptyDim 11 Mar 2018 - 15:56

It depends what you are looking for. What kind of subjects are you interested in ?
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptyDim 11 Mar 2018 - 16:03

There are always interesting articles in which writers talk about their experience in creating book games, give specific advice and recommendations on how they implement certain ideas, and why and why should be avoided. It is always useful to study someone else's experience, comparing it with his own, and looking at the same things from a different angle. This does not mean that one should agree with any article, even if it is written as a guide to action (two writers may have fundamentally different opinions on the same issue), but it is always useful to learn different points of view.
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptyDim 11 Mar 2018 - 22:37

Skald a écrit:
Philippe Ebli, a French writer popular in Russia, remade several acknowledged good ordinary books in the format of books-games (to the point of disputes over the literary merits of books-games). How many do you know of such examples? And are there any reverse cases?

P.Ebly made 2 gamebooks but his "ordinary" books, Les Conquérants de l'Impossible, are most famous.
All these were published in a children book colection, Bibliothèque Verte (Verte = Green), is for older chidren.

George Chaulet has writen a lote of books for youger children : Fantomette. The Fantomette serie was published in Bibliothèque Rose (Rose = Pink), for younger children. He made only one gamebook, which is very rare and so a very expansive one. But probably not interesting for adults.
http://planete-ldvelh.com/page/fantomette.html

OK, now let's go for the big one : Doug Headline, autor of sagas such as Priest John (5 books), Loi du Sabre (3 books), Superpouvoirs (2 books), Aladin, and one more book. Doug Headline is the son of Patrick Manchette, who was a famous writer of detectives stories. Headline made some "regular" books of his own too. He was also publisher of comics. He made with Jacques Terpant a comic "dont vous êtes le heros" with numbers to choose : La Citadelle Pourpre.


Cothias is well known for his comics. He made the biggest of ldvelh in number of § : "1789". (2450 § !!!)
This book is so big... It's full of bugs and it's a big disapointment.
http://planete-ldvelh.com/page/1789.html

Last but not least, Gildas Sagot made 8 gamebooks in his Dorgan universe, and two others (unfinished), Metamorphoses.
And another book : "tout savoir sur les jeux de rôle et les livres dont vous êtes le héros " which is not a gamebook, not a novel.



Citation :

Can you recommend me interesting articles that I could translate for the Russian-speaking community? Thank you.
http://litteraction.fr/conseils_ecriture_livres_jeux?page=1
These are explaining how to make a story more difficult, the other article give us some tips for writing.

These are or the gaming problems, probabilities in fight, chance of succes, if you like math :
http://litteraction.fr/conseils_ecriture_livres_jeux?page=2

_________________
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptyDim 11 Mar 2018 - 23:31

Thank you! Recently one of our authors has just written a book for 2500 paragraphs and is preparing for publication. He was impressed with "1789". When from the moment of my registration there will be a week - I can put a link to our site and show you our books)
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptyDim 11 Mar 2018 - 23:46

Yes, why not, thank you !
I've learned a litte bit of russian but I've not practiced since 20 years, but I remember the alphabet cyrillique and a few words.

Despite his huge numbers of §, 1789 is cheating quite a lot with many § of just one line.

Since the public aimed by french publishers of gamebook is most of the time the children, the best ldvelhs for adults now came from our community of amator writers. You will find a lot of AVH Aventure dont Vous êtes le Héros, at Literraction.
Look at the best AVHs winners of the Yaztromo prizes.


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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptyLun 12 Mar 2018 - 0:28

Thank you)

By the way, our author, who wrote a book for 2500 paragraphs, studied French. True, he had not practiced for 15 years, but in any case he could support the conversation in French better than me.
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptyLun 12 Mar 2018 - 13:01

Voyageur Solitaire a écrit:
Skald a écrit:
What is the average audience of book fans in France?

Not really high, I'm afraid.
I would not be so sure.

Gallimard jeunesse keeps on printing gamebooks and sell them 7 EUR, which means they print (and sell) a lot; as a comparison, when Scirptarium releases a pocket book, they sell it 15 EUR (they print 500 copies).

And the principle of gamebooks spread amongst a lot of publishers, big one, which means it's an interesting market. The first "escape  gamebook" in France was printed in 4 000 copies and all was sold in a few month (and it is aimed for adults, not for children, because of the difficulty).

So  I guess Gallimard jeunesse prints something like 10 000 copies each time. This means that they not only reach the nostalgic 30-40 years old people but also new young readers.

Concerning "serious" literature, it's worth mentioning Jérôme Attal and his books Pagaille monstre and Folie furieuse (2012).
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptyLun 12 Mar 2018 - 13:30

Thank you! Tell us, book games are mostly found in specialized stores (for example, stores for desktop role-playing games) or in ordinary ones too?
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptyLun 12 Mar 2018 - 14:06

You can find them in general bookstores (big or small, not all, but publishers like Gallimard jeunesse and Hachette are very well distributed) and in small game stores (usually those also selling roleplaying games).
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptyLun 12 Mar 2018 - 14:16

Thank you. Tell me, is it possible for foreign authors to publish their books in France? In the 90s, when the peak of the popularity of books-games was widely observed, Dmitry Braslavsky offered the "True Sword of the King", popular in Russia (the book-game, events in which are connected with the history of France of the 16th century) to French publishing houses: publishers for that the moment actively signed contracts with English-speaking authors, bought the rights to publish well-known book series and did not want to waste time on the book, which they could not evaluate without translation. Has the situation changed today?
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptyLun 12 Mar 2018 - 14:34

Well, difficult to tell. The policy of publishers evolve of course, but in which direction?

What I can tell is that publishers for teenagers are fond of english-sounding titles, they keep the name of collections in english, e.g. Beast Quest, Hunger Game, Animal Tatoo. Not really optimistic :-/ And marketing teams end to have more and more power.

I think only big publishers are able to translate from russian to french (russian-french translators are very few) so you are submited to their policy. Oherwise there are small editors who are more open minded but I doubt they can translate from russian.

Th ebest you can do is to offer the books to every french student coming to Russia, maybe one of them will be able to reach some publisher ^_^
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Date d'inscription : 05/03/2018

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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptyLun 12 Mar 2018 - 15:09

By the way, many (not all, but many) at one time wrote under the English-language pseudonyms, because in the 90 years of this book was better sold. Was it the same in France?
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptyLun 12 Mar 2018 - 23:17

https://quest-book.ru/

At last! Could put a link) Soon the site will have a new design, but it looks like it looks good too)
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Date d'inscription : 13/11/2013

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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptyMar 13 Mar 2018 - 10:30

Skald a écrit:
Was it the same in France?
One french gamebook writer took the name of James Campbell, but I think he is the only one. It is not common in litterature otherwise.

English nicknames are more common for musicians, e.g. Johnny Hallyday (Jean-Philippe Smet), Eddy Mitchell (Claude Moine), Dick Rivers (Hervé Forneri). It's a bit outdated now but a lot of bands have english names and sing in English.
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MessageSujet: Re: Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè   Êíèãè-èãðû â Ðîññèè - Page 3 EmptyMar 13 Mar 2018 - 23:02

Skald a écrit:
By the way, many (not all, but many) at one time wrote under the English-language pseudonyms, because in the 90 years of this book was better sold. Was it the same in France?
It is said that Gallimard (who edited 90% of the ldvelh in the 80's) at the time, prefered english pseudonyms to french ones in order to sell more ldvelhs :

- As far as I know, there's only James Campbell (probably Jean-françois Ménard)

http://planete-ldvelh.com/page/artiste-james-campbell.html

- Doug Headline as I said before, but his nickname is quite the translation in english of his french name, and he was Doug Headline before writing ldvelhs. He was not published by Gallimard by the way.

Gildas Sagot wrote under his real name for Gallimard, so ... everything is possible.

In fact there was so much english ldvelhs to translate in the 80's in the golden aera, that the need for french authors was not crucial.
It was easier to translate an english book.

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